I've had a very busy few days, which is why I haven't written anything since Thursday evening. Sorry about that. The life of a social butterfly... Sigh.
Kidding. But not really.
Because my first social event of the weekend was the aforementioned Halloween party, which I attended as Marilyn Monroe. It was a fun costume, and I think it was a hit. But it occurred to me halfway through the party that I should have gone as Juliet, to stay in keeping with my blogosphere persona... Nah, Marilyn Monroe is way cooler.
As the Halloween party made its way into the wee hours of the evening, a small group of us engaged in a friendly debate about relationships. In particular, there was a guy (we'll call him Mikey) who likes a girl (Ginger). There are times when it appears that Ginger's got the hots for him too, but then she'll go off and flirt with some other guy. Which clearly confuses the crap out of Mikey. One of the guys in our group (Daniel) urged Mikey to just straight-up tell Ginger how he feels. Daniel's wise advice was, "Just put it out there. Yeah, she might turn you down. And if she does, well, at least you'll know how she feels. But you're never going to know if you don't make the move, man." His point was that life is too short to keep waiting for the other person to make the first move. Well said, my friend.
But then I brought up the gender issue, which I love doing. I don't care what anyone says—men and women have different strengths, and those strengths should be carried over into romantic relationships. But as we all know, gender roles have gotten all screwed up lately. So I asked Daniel whether or not he thinks it's a turn-on if a girl makes the first move, even though that's typically the man's role. It seems to me that the girl would come across as too aggressive, which is something I've been told all of my life that guys don't like. But Daniel basically said, bring it on. He would love it if the girl made the first move, because then he'll know that she likes him. Which is precisely why we girls like it when the GUY makes the first move.
My head hurts.
What do you think? If you're interested in someone, and if you're not quite sure if that person is interested in you, do you make the move or do you wait for the other person to make it?
And, all of you men out there, I'm begging for some honesty here. If you, like Daniel, appreciate when the girl makes the move, but you don't want her to be too aggressive, how on earth are we to know where to draw the line?
Discuss.
(By the way, the kind of "moves" I'm talking about is innocent stuff like asking for a date or a phone number. Just wanted to make that clear, because sometimes "making a move" has different interpretations.)
Okay, now you can discuss.
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8 comments:
You know my opinion: make a move. I always do, and while I've gotten hurt because of it, it's never been more than I can handle.
I guess it depends on the relationship you already have with the person that you're "making a move" on. If you're planning on asking your best friend out on a date, that's a pretty big deal and is a bigger conversation than just: do you think a girl should make the first move?
However, if you don't really know the guy that well, you really have nothing to lose. If they turn you down, a little embarassment and hurt pride won't kill you. Perhaps you'll even laugh about it later. I asked my guy friend out when I was in high school, and he turned me down... twice. Later we became best friends, and we always laughed about how he picked another girl over me.
The rejection was difficult for me, especially coming from a friend, but I got over it. I probably would have regretted not trying much longer than I ended up feeling embarrassed. How will you ever know what can happen if you don't try?
Also, I think there's plenty of ways to ask for a date or a phone number without coming off as aggressive. If it's a turn-off to a guy, do you want to spend the rest of your life with a man that can't handle a woman who takes some initiative anyway?
I think Mikey's parents passed down way more than 4 emotional receptors onto him.
I was formerly the queen of making the move on the man. I found my target and I attacked. It was like a game for me. And yes, MEN LOVE IT!...... for a week. After a while it turns into this blase mess where the woman is constantly chasing, pining and hoping. I find that relationships are like foundation. If you set the foundation with cracks in it there is doom that lies ahead.
Ladies, we need to take it back. The dating world is a MESS. We need to put our foot down and allow the men to be men. They're not being men right now because we're screwing it up.
So, there is the insight of a recovering aggressor.
Ditto to the last comment.
To be blunt (by the way, I'm Seth who wrote "The Deepest Circle of Hell), 20something (and sometimes 30something) guys need to get a freaking decent job, save some money, quit watching porn, delete World of Warcraft from their PC's, and move out on their own (guys, there's an alternative to living with your parents as a grown-up: they're called "roommates").
I strongly agree with "Blue Like Jazz" author Don Miller, who says that "women are attracted to guys who have their crap together." The amount of immaturity in guys in my age range (I'm 25, so roughly 21-32) is epic, and it's directly tied to the divorce rates of our parents. Males cannot learn how to be a man from just women, and they'll only learn to be delinquent from peers their age.
Yeah, this is a dating question, but it's also a sociological epidemic.
My advice to ladies: if you've got to chase a guy now, be prepared to take the lead in everything. Be prepared to stand up for yourself when some other guy grabs your butt in a resturant, because a guy who's too scared to ask you out will be too scared to defend you. Be prepared to have to drag him through every phase of the relationship. Be prepared to have to force an engagement, and a marriage.
Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." By not making a move, a guy is showing what's inside.
As I write all this, I seriously feel for women in my age group. I don't really know how to fix this problem, but I can say that I spend time each week pouring myself into college-age guys, encouraging them to be ready to go out into the world and be men.
My advice to women. Get in guy's way. Look gorgeous (not slutty), flirt with him a bit, show interest in whatever it is he's interested in. If he doesn't make a move, either he's stupid, not into you, or timid. None of those things mean that there's anything wrong with YOU! In the words of one of my favorite philosophers, Jay-Z, "brush your shoulder off" and move on. There are good guys out there willing to be men, so don't quit looking.
Juliet, I've been thinking more about this topic after reading the other comments. I feel pretty strongly that a woman should feel comfortable making a first move.
Here is where I draw the line: making a move does not mean "chasing" a guy. It means opening the door, saying I may be interested in you, can I call you some time or would you like to go out on a date?
Just because a girl makes the first move, doesn't mean she should make all of them. Ask for his phone number, ask for a date, and then maybe wait to see if he asks for one.
If you're constantly chasing, pining, and hoping, as anonymous says, that sounds like a guy who has become uninterested or never really was. This could happen whether a girl makes the first move or not. It's a risk you take.
Also, Seth, I hope that you don't mean that a guy who is afraid to ask a girl out is also afraid to defend women. I can see if the girl is making all of the moves, but just the first one? I have several guy friends who are shy when it comes to asking a girl out, but are not shy about putting a guy in his place if he treats a girl inappropriately, i.e. grabbing her butt, any girl... not just their girlfriend or wife.
They are also not shy about showing their feelings when they get over the first hump. One of my friends won't flirt with girls or ask for their numbers, but when he gets a girlfriend (whether he gets the guts to finally ask her out after she's made it painfully obvious that she's interested or she makes a move), he will even publicly proclaim his love for her. He's not an anomaly either.
I do think it is a good idea to flirt with a guy you're interested in, talk to him, see what his interests are, and if he doesn't seem interested, move on. If he does, why can't you tell him you'd be interested in a date?
Sorry for two long posts. I'm just not going to wait around for a guy to make a move if I'm interested and he seems interested, and I don't think you should either.
Just wanted to show a bit of love to the comments immediately above this one. I certainly wasn't trying to over-generalize, and I totally understand what you're saying, as I'm semi-shy myself (I'm not "that guy" who walks into a bar and starts getting numbers or anything like that). There are definately multiple paths to a healthy, strong relationship.
However, one thing that competing at the ironman level of triathlon has taught me is that the really good things in life are worth fighting for. This may sound crazy, but it's gut-level honest. If there's not a bit of fear at being rejected, if it's too easy, I probalby won't focus enough to take a potential relationship to the next level.
Please keep in mind that I don't speak for all guys, and this method of thinking may certainly come from my adrenaline-junkie status rather than my gender.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound completely critical of what you said. I just had to stick up for my shy boys, lol. I didn't mention that I agree with you on the fact that a lot of 20something year old guys need to grow up, trust me I know.
I totally agree with you that some things are worth fighting for, which is why I'm not willing to sit around and wait. ;) Also, just because I'm willing to make the first move, doesn't mean that winning me over isn't a challenge.
I think the men should almost always make the move, call me a traditionalist. I would be turned off if a woman came up to me and asked me on a date, I'd feel like Darren Silverman from Saving Silverman. I guess my point is, as a guy, if you like her but you don't know if she likes you and you don't know what to do, you're 12 years old. Grow a pair and go talk to her, she'll tell you what she thinks of you. Wussy men are what's helping drive our society into the ground anyway.
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